What OS X Could Learn From Windows
Okay.
Hard hat? Check.
Flak jacket? Check.
Flame proof vest? Check.
White flag? Check.
Deep breath? Check.
Windows has some features OS X could do with.
There, I said it. Nice and quick and up front. No beating around the bush. So what now? Duck!!!
Is it safe to come out yet? I’ve been burnt before daring to suggest this. But here I am again, sucker for punishment.
1) Compatible control keys. Switching between Mac and Windows this drives me nuts. I have to consciously think “command-C or control-C?” It shouldn’t have to be that way. And if you’re running RDC or VPC and copying and pasting between OS X and Windows!! Sheesh!
The problem isn’t the labeling, it’s the location of the keys used. I had to use a Windows PC today and I kept pressing Alt-C to copy. This is why it’s a problem. If it was simply a matter of labeling, no worries, mate. Apple - and the zealotry - need to concede that this battle is lost.
Implementing this would rock many people’s boats, so if Apple did make this change it’d have some serious domino affect on other keystrokes and applications that use them, but maybe it could be done with the switch to Intel, just to ease the pain slightly.
2) Save button on toolbars. I don’t think any of the Apple software ever gives you the option to include a Save button. Print button yes, Save button no. A little test - raise your hand if you save your work more often than you print it? Ah, so I’m not alone. Good. You can put your hands down. Thank you.
3) A multi button mouse. And you thought I’d say two. Why stop at two? Especially with things like Exposé, Dashboard and Spotlight. They’re just crying out for single click activation from a mouse. Ok. So this isn’t a Windows feature per sé, but still is needed.
4) Only show relevant file types in open and save dialogs. For those who like seeing every file that’s every existed in their Documents folder, give them a checkbox to show all files. But personally, if I am opening a Pages file, I don’t want to see all my iMovie, Excel, iDVD etc files. And OS X already knows which are which because non-related ones are greyed out.
5) Sort folders to top of directory listings I know that we don’t go folder mining as much since we got Spotlight, so I won’t labor on about this one.
6) More context sensitive help. I notice since I first raised this two years ago, more of it has crept into OS X. So I guess at least I can’t be flamed for this one!
Now why is it that I can list all the features I want Leopard to have and as long as none of them are from Windows, its cool? But dare suggest OS X needs a feature already in Windows and the world comes down on you. We can admit that OS X is not perfect, but not that Windows is better in some ways.
But Apple have admitted it in the past. Here’s just a couple of things I’ve seen Windows do that Apple has added:
- Command-tab switching
- Existing files selectable in Save dialog
Last week I suggested changes to the iPod and more people than not, disagreed. And I reckon this week it’ll be a lot worse. But if I added to this list “Change to Intel CPU’s"… two months ago I would have been burned at the stake. Now it seems we all think that change is logical. So before you get the flame thrower out remember, we know Apple make changes, they borrow from Windows and borrow from their 3rd party developers.
Also, I know I’m going to get flamed for this being a “tired old argument that has been done to death”. Sorry if you feel that way. just pretend I didn’t say these features already existed in Windows and that they are new and revolutionary. If we stop asking, Apple may think we don’t want them anymore. Microsoft copied so much from Mac OS, why can’t Apple do a little copying back?
And if you can take the heat, what would you like to see Apple borrow from Windows?
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OS X has the ability to “Copy and Paste” items in the Finder.
Select something, copy it, go to your destination and paste it.
It doesn’t support cutting something to move it however.
Scott is right. Shipping with a multi-button mouse will tell designers flat out that it is OK to design for a multi-button mouse. That means more complex application interface design. I have NOTHING against multiple button mice.
However, I remember the days of the the industry standard three button mouse and saw how that led to amazingly complicated interfaces. We really do NOT want to go back there. Besides, who says that the mouse is the ultimate interaction device? What happens when we all move to on screen pressure pens?
Context sensitive elements such as toolbars, right-click menus and help are one of the better contributions Microsoft has made to the GUI
That’s revisionist history. X-windows used a 3-button mouse with differing contextual functions before MS Windows. Contextual mouse actions are NOT an invention of MS (Xerox PARC also had a multi-button mouse as did early Apple Lisa prototypes).
Protected application memory and pre-emptive multitasking are also Unix inventions… not Windows. Go read up on your computer history before making ridiculous claims like this.
Beeblebrox et al:
Apple has always used a KISS philosophy in its design choices. This has made the OS clean, simple and elegant over the years with a shallow learning curve for new users. Because you disagree with this design philosophy, you insist that everyone else change to fit *your* needs… that Apple is wrong and that we Apple users who like the KISS philosophy are wrong.
This is a bullshit debate tactic. Just because you don’t like it, doesn’t make it immediately wrong. Just because we agree with the Apple design choice, doesn’t make us “Zealots"… but you can’t seem to debate your points without stooping to the level of name calling and trolling for flame responses.
We argue in favor of NOT making the Mac more Windows-like because we believe the KISS policy is the better one and Apple adhereing to that philosophy is why the Mac OS has a better overall “feel” in usage. We don’t see the need to change that design philosophy just to suit the switchers… and I personally feel it would be a disaster to add features willy-nilly to make the Mac OS more “Windows-like”.
You people are hilarious. Sit back, look at all the bickering. Isn’t it rediculous if not outright pointless? Sure is! ‘Cause guess what? Complaining on a blog gets NOTHING done.
Oh, and in an attempt to keep the number of comments going and to attempt to spread some “contraversy,” how about this?
Mac users who claim two-button mice are not important or pointless are probably just scared to admit they’re wrong or, simply, that the non-Apple computer world came up with a good idea. Guess what? That happens a lot.
Ah, geeks… When will we ever learn?
AppleInsider reported in March Apple are developing a two button mouse.(full article here)
[Quote]In other news, Hell has not frozen over yet, but it very well may.
According to sources who have so far filed accurate reports on Apple’s future hardware plans, the company is feverishly working on a two-button wireless optical mouse that it intends to release.
Apple enthusiasts have longed for an Apple-branded two-button mouse for over a decade, but their requests have gone unanswered. So what has changed? According to sources, ‘it’s the company.”
With Apple now profiting from low-priced consumer electronics as it makes a push to reclaim market share from Windows, a two-button mouse is ‘almost an essential,’ sources said.
It’s unclear when the computer maker plans to introduce the mouse. Insiders warned that anticipation may continue to build for months as the company perfects the product.
Apple has just recently reduced the price of its wired mouse to $29 and its wireless optical mouse to $59. The two-button wireless optical mouse would likely debut at the $69 price point once reserved for the company’s current wireless mouse.
“Jaws will drop,” said one insider.
Where will that leave all the folks who say Apple have done “millions” of studies to prove that one button is the only way and that two-buttons will make the interface more complicated and developers more lazy (even though command-click menus already are prolific)?
Oh, and of course, Hell has frozen over since that article was written…
You act as if people are totally against a two-button mouse. Do you honestly think they’ll be shipping their computers with a two-button mouse? It’s going to be a build-to-order/standalone option… just like it is now with third-party mice. Don’t gloss over that point, because it’s the important one.
Lavar, why are you so absolute? Why do you believe with many companies pouring millions of dollars into research, Apple are the only ones who get the GUI and ergonomics right?
Someone once said said me, always ask the question “Who wants me to believe that?”
For example:
-remember the report last year that MS liked quoting that said Windows had lower TCO than Linux? But it was MS who funded the report.
- Or the advertisements we had here (in Australia) telling how latest research showed we needed X amount of iron in our diet and the best source of it was lean beef. Who wanted me to believe that? The Meat Corporation.
- And then there was the cigarette companies who for years told us that smoking was safe.
- The research that told us chocolate was good for our health. Sponsored by a chocolate company.
- And the computer company who told us for years that PPC chips were so superior to Pentiums.
- And the computer company who for 20 years has told us that the one button mouse makes for a better GUI design. No other OS developer seems to have discovered that. Not even Linux with it’s plethora of variants - I can’t think of one that promotes the use of a one button mouse with it.
Just as they have done with Intel, as soon as it suits Apple, they will have all the data to show you that the two-buttom mouse is superior.
Who knows when that will happen? Maybe you are right and it will be never.
But if you are going to throw up the argument that “company X has done the research to prove their product is superior”.,. that’s as weak an argument as me expecting you to believe my point of view simply because that’s what I think. And I certainly apologize where I have come across that way here.
Show me the independent research. Show me study after study after study that supports it. Studies that aren’t funded by vested interests.
Personal and anecdotal experience which really I, and most of us are quoting, are opinion. And for opinion there is no right or wrong. There is no absolute.
Vested interest research also falls into the same category. It carries as much weight as opinion.
We all know Apple are exceedingly good at design. Quite probably the best in the industry. But that doesn’t mean they are right every time. And it certainly doesn’t mean they won’t do an about face on what they’ve preached for 20 years.
I respect you and your opinion and appreciate the information you’ve brought to this discussion, but unless you are Steve Jobs, I wonder why you are so absolute about Apple retaining the one-button mouse.
This seems superior to the Windows way where you either have the MDI approach of a parent window housing the many child
That reminds me of ANOTHER Mac annoyance (and this precedes OS X), and that’s the way the Mac OS deals with windows and multiple apps. In Windows, an app is contained fully inside its own window with its own background space. In OS X, it’s a lot easier to accidentally click the background and go to the Finder. Granted its a matter of adjustment, but it’s still highly annoying.
As for closing apps with the red X, I don’t see any difference between what you’re describing and minimizing, except that with minimizing you don’t THINK you’ve closed an app when you really haven’t.
Lavar, why are you so absolute?
Chris, don’t you understand the meaning of the word “zealot”?
Chris, chocolate isn’t neccessarily good for your health.
Cocoa is. Cocoa is IN chocolate, but most people consume milk chocolate, which in my opinion defeats the whole purpose of even eating chocolate. Milk, again in my opinion, is terrible for you.
OS X has Cocoa. Does that mean it’s good for us?! It’ll help my heart?! Awesome! Count me as a devoted Mac user. Oh, wait, I already am sinc eall my experience with Windows over the years has kept me sticking with Apple.
Lavar, why are you so absolute? Why do you believe with many companies pouring millions of dollars into research, Apple are the only ones who get the GUI and ergonomics right?
I respect the fact that you’re not calling me names like “zealot,” but this comment makes me think you’re assuming as much. I didn’t say or imply that Apple is the only company to get the GUI and ergonomics right. I do think they got the one-button mouse right, which is the issue we’re discussing.
But if you are going to throw up the argument that “company X has done the research to prove their product is superior”
You can stop right there because I never said that. It was someone else.
And for opinion there is no right or wrong. There is no absolute.
Agreed. I have tried to make a point of saying everything I’ve posted is my opinion. I thought if that wasn’t clear.
I respect you and your opinion and appreciate the information you’ve brought to this discussion, but unless you are Steve Jobs, I wonder why you are so absolute about Apple retaining the one-button mouse.
The respect is mutual. Yes, Apple could stop bundling one-button mice. I don’t think they will any time soon and I certainly don’t think they will the moment they first introduce a first-party two-button mouse. I can see splitting them along the consumer/pro lines at most. Of course, I could be wrong.
BTW, I think it needs to be said that Apple can introduce a two-button mouse without claiming it’s superior. (I don’t even think they claim one button is “superior” since they encourage people to buy other mice if they want more buttons.) For example, I think they went to only USB2 in the iPod because of its prevalence, but they would still contend that FireWire is the superior technology. FWIW, I agree.
Oops! I meant to say, “I thought that was clear.”
I didn’t say or imply that Apple is the only company to get the GUI and ergonomics right. I do think they got the one-button mouse right, which is the issue we’re discussing.
Actually, the issue here is what features/design/etc that OSX could learn from Windows. The discussion of the one-button mouse stemmed from that.
So what do you think? Any feature in Windows that you think works better or could be added to OSX?
So what do you think? Any feature in Windows that you think works better or could be added to OSX?
Since I switched four years ago, the only thing I missed in Windows has already been added (Cmd-Tab switching). Granted, I avoid using Windows whenever possible, but nothing else seems crucial to me. Of the things mentioned here, I have no problem at all with (optional) save buttons on toolbars or a contextual menu when right-dragging something to select move or copy, but I wouldn’t really use those features. I’ll have to think about it some more.
Chris: Doesn’t that also apply to key-combinations? They after all are buttons.
Entering multi-character text with a keyboard is significantly different than pointing at something with a mouse.
Chris: Where does contorted key combinations come into that argument? For example, Safari has 23 key combinations that require two or more modifier keys (plus the main key); Text Edit has 14; Pages has 22. How do we teach a person who can’t even operate a two button mouse to use those key combinations?
Key-combinations are shortcuts to basic and advanced tasks. They are very convenient, but not necessary to operate a computer. I’m a hot key-junky, but not everyone wants or is capable of using hot-keys.
The most common hot-key combinations, such as save, print, new window, etc. only use a single modifier. More advanced features are exposed using multiple modifier keys. For example, in Safari, the View source hot-key requires two modifiers. But, unless your a web developer, most people never need to use this feature. (I’m a web developer and even I don’t use it)
Chris: … I’d come back to my simple request for Apple to lead the way and include a save button on their toolbars - even if it’s not on by default. It makes no sense to me why a print button is an option on Apple’s software toolbars, but save isn’t.
Interesting observation. The Mac UI didn’t have a system-provided toolbar until one was inherited from OPENSTEP in Mac OS X. Having an optional Save tool bar button, when appropriate, would be a good idea.
Chris: But if a person is able bodied enough to operated the contortion of keystrokes available, then surely they can operate a two-button mouse!
Who says just because someone is able that they want to use a two button mouse?
Take cars for example. I prefer to drive a car with a manual transmission, but that wasn’t always the case. When I was learning to drive, having to coordinate two feet instead of one (and shifting gears) made the process more difficult. So I learned to drive and took my drivers license test in a truck with an automatic transmission.
After I became comfortable driving, I wanted more control and switched to a manual transmission, but not everyone feels the same way. It’s not that they can’t operate or learn how to drive stick, they just want get from point A to point B and a prefer an automatic transmission. Even more important, you don’t need a manual transmission to drive a car.
Right now, I want the extra control of a manual transmission, but When I’m 60 years old (if we’re still driving cars) I might want to switch to an automatic. I wouldn’t want car manufactures to stop selling automatic transmission vehicles because they though drivers had become “smart enough” to use manual transmissions or come out with some automatic / manual hybrid and tell me to “Ignore that extra petal, except when you need to put your car in reverse or open the trunk.”
This is effectively what the rest the computer industry has done. You’re just used to it because you like “manual transmissions” and that’s the only thing everyone else sells.