What OS X Could Learn From Windows
Okay.
Hard hat? Check.
Flak jacket? Check.
Flame proof vest? Check.
White flag? Check.
Deep breath? Check.
Windows has some features OS X could do with.
There, I said it. Nice and quick and up front. No beating around the bush. So what now? Duck!!!
Is it safe to come out yet? I’ve been burnt before daring to suggest this. But here I am again, sucker for punishment.
1) Compatible control keys. Switching between Mac and Windows this drives me nuts. I have to consciously think “command-C or control-C?” It shouldn’t have to be that way. And if you’re running RDC or VPC and copying and pasting between OS X and Windows!! Sheesh!
The problem isn’t the labeling, it’s the location of the keys used. I had to use a Windows PC today and I kept pressing Alt-C to copy. This is why it’s a problem. If it was simply a matter of labeling, no worries, mate. Apple - and the zealotry - need to concede that this battle is lost.
Implementing this would rock many people’s boats, so if Apple did make this change it’d have some serious domino affect on other keystrokes and applications that use them, but maybe it could be done with the switch to Intel, just to ease the pain slightly.
2) Save button on toolbars. I don’t think any of the Apple software ever gives you the option to include a Save button. Print button yes, Save button no. A little test - raise your hand if you save your work more often than you print it? Ah, so I’m not alone. Good. You can put your hands down. Thank you.
3) A multi button mouse. And you thought I’d say two. Why stop at two? Especially with things like Exposé, Dashboard and Spotlight. They’re just crying out for single click activation from a mouse. Ok. So this isn’t a Windows feature per sé, but still is needed.
4) Only show relevant file types in open and save dialogs. For those who like seeing every file that’s every existed in their Documents folder, give them a checkbox to show all files. But personally, if I am opening a Pages file, I don’t want to see all my iMovie, Excel, iDVD etc files. And OS X already knows which are which because non-related ones are greyed out.
5) Sort folders to top of directory listings I know that we don’t go folder mining as much since we got Spotlight, so I won’t labor on about this one.
6) More context sensitive help. I notice since I first raised this two years ago, more of it has crept into OS X. So I guess at least I can’t be flamed for this one!
Now why is it that I can list all the features I want Leopard to have and as long as none of them are from Windows, its cool? But dare suggest OS X needs a feature already in Windows and the world comes down on you. We can admit that OS X is not perfect, but not that Windows is better in some ways.
But Apple have admitted it in the past. Here’s just a couple of things I’ve seen Windows do that Apple has added:
- Command-tab switching
- Existing files selectable in Save dialog
Last week I suggested changes to the iPod and more people than not, disagreed. And I reckon this week it’ll be a lot worse. But if I added to this list “Change to Intel CPU’s"… two months ago I would have been burned at the stake. Now it seems we all think that change is logical. So before you get the flame thrower out remember, we know Apple make changes, they borrow from Windows and borrow from their 3rd party developers.
Also, I know I’m going to get flamed for this being a “tired old argument that has been done to death”. Sorry if you feel that way. just pretend I didn’t say these features already existed in Windows and that they are new and revolutionary. If we stop asking, Apple may think we don’t want them anymore. Microsoft copied so much from Mac OS, why can’t Apple do a little copying back?
And if you can take the heat, what would you like to see Apple borrow from Windows?
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Hi all,
I’ve had my Mac mini for a few weeks now. I also have two Windows desktops and a Linux desktop plus a Windows laptop at home. I use daily many unix servers via terminal connections.
I have to say that OS X hasn’t quite met all my expectations. I don’t really understand the people in this thread who believe that Windows users use the mouse all the time whereas the Mac users just forget about the mouse and use keyboard shortcuts instead.
Personally, I’m still having slight problems moving between different applications and windows. OK, Cmd-Tab will switch between applications - mainly because X11 uses arrow keys instead of < and > to jump between windows.
In Windows, I use tab to move between GUI controls, Ctrl-Tab to move between windows and Alt-Tab to move between applications. (Although e.g. Firefox windows are considered different “applications” in this context and the tabs are their “windows”.) Windows behaviour is in my opinion much more consistant than Mac OS X. I tried to set Ctrl-Tab to a shortcut to move between windows but failed.
A huge trouble for me is jumping between GUI widgets. Thanks for the “All controls” prefs setting but it’s not supported in e.g. Firefox. Not even Safari - but Safari seems to recognise Ctrl-F7.
For Copy-Paste I have used Ctrl-Insert and Shift-Insert for a long time since they work also in terminals. Since I don’t suppose they have any special meaning in Mac yet, would it be possible for someone to write a simple hack for OS X to make them alternative keyboard shortcuts for Copy and Paste? And maybe Apple could even support them in the next OS X version (preferably including X11). (I’m using my old Logitech cordless keyboard so I don’t know whether you even have Insert key in Mac keyboards.)
Samuel, I’ll try to help.
On the Mac, Tab moves between GUI controls, Cmd+Tab switches applications, and Cmd+` switches between windows of the current application.
A huge trouble for me is jumping between GUI widgets. Thanks for the “All controls” prefs setting but it’s not supported in e.g. Firefox. Not even Safari - but Safari seems to recognise Ctrl-F7.
What do you mean with Safari? Like switching between buttons in a dialog box or sheet? That works fine for me. Ctrl-F7 switches the behavior.
For Copy-Paste I have used Ctrl-Insert and Shift-Insert for a long time since they work also in terminals. Since I don’t suppose they have any special meaning in Mac yet, would it be possible for someone to write a simple hack for OS X to make them alternative keyboard shortcuts for Copy and Paste? And maybe Apple could even support them in the next OS X version (preferably including X11). (I’m using my old Logitech cordless keyboard so I don’t know whether you even have Insert key in Mac keyboards.)
I don’t have an Insert key on my iceKey. Anyway, you should be able to use the Keyboard Shortcuts found in Keyboard & Mouse preferences to make your alternate Copy and Paste shortcuts. There are third-party programs as well.
What do you mean with Safari? Like switching between buttons in a dialog box or sheet? That works fine for me. Ctrl-F7 switches the behavior.
Oh, I see. I got confused with the wording in the Keyboard & Mouse Preferences ("Move between controls or text boxes and lists") and the fact that Ctrl-F7 in fact seems to move focus between controls. After another testing it seems that Safari behaves as it should, while Firefox still doesn’t work. (Opera and Camino have their own variants.) Even if this is more a problem with third party software than the OS itself, it still is harder to use the same software on OS X than on the other platforms…
I can’t find the way to modify Copy and Paste shortcuts in Keyboard & Mouse prefs. And “Application Keyboard Shortcuts” doesn’t accept the Insert key…
Thanks for the hint, anyway!
Oh, I see. I got confused with the wording in the Keyboard & Mouse Preferences ("Move between controls or text boxes and lists") and the fact that Ctrl-F7 in fact seems to move focus between controls.
I think that’s a bug. It makes sense that it would move if you’re on a control that’s no longer supposed to be selected, but it appears to switch every time you use Ctrl+F7 until the end of the page.
After another testing it seems that Safari behaves as it should, while Firefox still doesn’t work. (Opera and Camino have their own variants.) Even if this is more a problem with third party software than the OS itself, it still is harder to use the same software on OS X than on the other platforms…
Yeah, I think that’s a consequence of Firefox’s cross-platform nature (like using its own widgets). I’d assume OmniWeb, Shiira, and all of the other “true” Mac browsers work just like Safari does.
I can’t find the way to modify Copy and Paste shortcuts in Keyboard & Mouse prefs. And “Application Keyboard Shortcuts” doesn’t accept the Insert key…
I don’t think it accepts any non-function key without a modifier key. Try holding Ctrl before hitting Insert. It might work. Like I said, I can’t test it because I don’t have an Insert key. If it doesn’t work, you could try a third-party app like iKey or Keyboard Maestro.
I was playing around with Iphoto yesterday and was reminded of another little feature I enjoy in Windows that I’d love to see added to the Mac. When you’re either browsing photos or looking at images in a browser, you can right-click and save the image right to your desktop wallpaper.
The only easy way I see to do that on the Mac is with Iphoto’s Desktop. The only other way is to open the System Preferences. I can’t do it from a folder or from Firefox.
You know, I was reminded a bit of the old days when I read that. I recall in the early days of Netscape Navigator, that was one of the very few contextual menu items.
I also remember being annoyed at having so many of the computers at the university labs all having seemingly random images as the wall paper (that I’d have to remove) most likely from users who chose the menu item by mistake.
It does make sense for iPhoto to have a feature like that, but I’ve always thought it was an annoying feature in web browsers… I guess I’m still traumatized from my computer science days working the labs. : )
It does make sense for iPhoto to have a feature like that, but I’ve always thought it was an annoying feature in web browsers.
That’s like saying that the “lens flare” feature shouldn’t be in Photoshop because people abuse it. Like they can’t abuse it with Iphoto?
What I don’t understand is why it’s totally missing from Firefox on the Mac. Is there something in the OS that prevents this from being implemented even with a 3rd party browser?
You seem to be missing the joke in my post about being a lab admin. Even though I wasn’t entirely serious, I’ll expound on some reasons I don’t like it in a browser.
A web browser is a ubiquitous application on every machine (in a computer lab, for instance). iPhoto is not. You wouldn’t put iPhoto on a lab machine (or other public computer) since it is not a personal-use machine (thereby disallowing that feature’s abuse in that particular instance).
Also, the example I was writing about included the fact that, since it was a context menu item in the browser, it was chosen accidentally by users (who may have been intending to cut/paste, save an image or some other selection… not make it the wallpaper—another reason it was annoying).
Additionally, something like the desktop image should only be able to be changed from certain places ... like System Preferences (which does, by the way, have a “Pictures” selection that can pull images from the iPhoto picture library).
Your comparison to Photoshop is a bad analogy. Adding a lens flare to an image I’m editing does not affect other users on the system. It doesn’t change a system setting.
Granted, on a multi-user machine these days changing the desktop now only changes it for that user, but the example I was joking about was back in the OS 7-8 / Win 95 days ... when you didn’t have multiple users account on a box. Changing the desktop wallpaper changed it for everyone using that computer. Though even today, computer labs generally only have one “guest” account that all users use when on the machines, so it still applies in that example.
This is a good example of feature creep in a web browser that violates the KISS principle. Changing the desktop should be the purview of the system preferences (and therefore could be locked down by an administrator as needed). Allowing a web browser (or other app) to access those settings opens a hole in the admin’s control of the machine, be it in a student lab, internet cafe, library, Kinko’s or other public use location.
Is there something in the OS that prevents this from being implemented even with a 3rd party browser?
My guess is that it was more trouble than it was worth to implement. It used to be that there was a file called “Desktop Picture” (or some similar name) in the System Folder. All an application had to do was copy an image file over that one with the same name and the desktop wallpaper would change.
However, in OS X, there isn’t a set location for the desktop image file anymore. I believe now the setting is just a file path to the image in an XML plist somewhere… So you have the question: What would a browser do with the file itself? To “Save as Wallpaper” would require both putting the image somewhere in the user’s directory and changing the file path to point to it as well as changing some other settings to let the desktop preferences panel know that you’re using a custom file location (it does have some pre-defined image folders).
Why bother writing all that functionality into the web browser for a feature that is very rarely used… especially when the user can change the image (the proper way) through the System Preferences?
Feature creep is not always desirable… and I’m sure the developers would rather spend their time writing code that parses CSS/DOM better rather than some functionality that is seldom used and already duplicated elsewhere in the OS.
If it were as easy as copying over a pre-set file, like in the old days, it might be in there.
Chris Howards “wish-list” is quite interesting, so one after the other
1. control - short cuts: so if you want them, make them via syscontrol - in my opinion the command is better, more intuitive and easier to reach
2. got a point, could be there, though I do not use it - I’m fine with command+s (and also use control+s when in the plight of using MS
3. can be done with it, here comes the mighty mouse and me, I’ll still stick to the one-button, as one hand is always on the keyboard when working the cntrl is always there, and me I don’t like more than 2 buttons and scroll on MS either - I might be oldfashioned but for me everything with more than two is called keyboard =)
4.Correct me if I’m wrong, but Mac shows all files for a purpose - intuitive recognition of a certain folder. I’m always kind of surprised when saving on win and not all the files that should be in the folder show up
5. despite of spotlight, when I know that a file is in a certain folder, I will go there manually; this is a point I can agree with, but only from my windows-user heritage side; I think apple-worms would be alienated
Generally I think it’s no good idea to copy Windows. What for? Attract switchers? Alienate long time users? Being a switcher myself I was stunned for the first time I (admittedly) had to use Mac. After 10 minutes I was in love with the idea of having just one application bar, having files and folders in alphabetical order, having just the controls there I needed (and apple seems to have some insight into my mind, I never miss anything in their apps, no more overloaded apps!), and so on ...
This is a good example of feature creep in a web browser that violates the KISS principle.
That’s like saying that tabbed browsing is an example of feature creep. You could make that same dumbass argument about ANYTHING that some other product can do that OS X can’t, and I’m guessing you probably do.
Supposedly the multi-button mouse violated their KISS principle too, but they made one and guess who now defends it up and down?
My guess is that it was more trouble than it was worth to implement.
Microsoft didn’t seem to have any trouble. It works great. I can go to any folder and right-click any image and make it the background. I can do the same from any browser.
That’s like saying that tabbed browsing is an example of feature creep. You could make that same dumbass argument about ANYTHING that some other product can do that OS X can’t, and I’m guessing you probably do.
Are you saying that Tab browsing is an important of a feature as setting your desktop image with a right click? Now who’s the Zealot? 99% of all images on the web are specifically cropped and optimized to be displayed in a web page along with other images, not as the background of your monitor. How often do you want a 200x100 jpeg image on your desktop?
Supposedly the multi-button mouse violated their KISS principle too, but they made one and guess who now defends it up and down?
Again, you’re ignoring the fact that the new mouse is still a single shell design and functions as a one button mouse by default. You actually have to turn on left clicks in the control panel.
<em>Microsoft didn’t seem to have any trouble. It works great. I can go to any folder and right-click any image and make it the background. I can do the same from any browser.<em>
Maybe if Microsoft spend more time on fixing security flaws in Internet Explorer instead of adding unnecessary features, they wouldn’t be such a huge target for hackers and phishers.
Also, Tabbed browsing is *turned off* by default in Safari. You have to explicitly turn in on in preferences.
That’s like saying that tabbed browsing is an example of feature creep. [...] that some other product can do that OS X can’t
You did it again. You purposefully changed the meaning of what I said to try to justify your “point”.
First off, OS X can change the wallpaper background from the system preferences… The Firefox developers simply chose not to include it on the Mac version of their browser.
“Save As Wallpaper” changes a SYSTEM SETTING which has nothing to do with web browsing. So why include a “feature” that has nothing to do with web browsing in a web browser?
That’s what I call feature creep. Adding useless features just because you can. I don’t want my web browser to change my system font either. By your argument, Firefox should do that too… And also the size of my icons.
As another example, right-clicking on Firefox reveals a menu of 12 items with a sub-menu of 8 additional items. The freakin’ context menu cascades! And you’d like it to have yet another item? That’s some of the worst UI element I’ve ever seen.
While we’re at it, why not “Save this image to my iPhoto library”? or “Convert this MP3 file to AIFF” or “Email this page to a friend”. Those would be easy to add to the context menus, too. I think we could hit 100 new features in the context menus alone if we try.
I can go to any folder and right-click any image and make it the background.
Did you actually read all of my post? No, probably not, because all you do is respond with some knee-jerk BS to piss people off.
My guess is Microsoft XP does the wallpaper similar to the way it was done in OS 9… a predefined file path where all you have to do is copy a new image over the old one. OS X doesn’t work that way as I stated in my very datailed post on the subject which you apparently didn’t read… Therefore, the developers probably thought it wasn’t worth their time to implement it on the Mac side since it has little to do with the web browsing experience. That “feature” should be kicked to the curb on the Windows side as well.
Supposedly the multi-button mouse violated their KISS principle too
No, as stated by many, many posters… It *is* a one button mouse out of the box. There is no right or left click unless the user defines one on the preferences pane. This illustrates the KISS philosophy down to the core. I like how you choose to ignore this fact that I know you’ve already read 100 times before. Nice debate strategy.
First off, I’m not a zealot, I think there are definetly things Apple needs to consider “borrowing” from Windows. Now to comment your suggestions:
1) No way! Many people here pointed it out sufficiently: OSX’s shortcut handling is superior to XP’s and to change that just to please the occasional switcher is plainly stupid. Where would you wanna stop? There are lots of things that OSX does different than Windows and better so, should they all be surrendered? After all, this is the Mac OS and not Suse…
2) Nobody prevents anybody from putting a Save-Button on their toolsbars, but since hardly anybody does and hardly anbody requests it, you seem to be the minority. Sorry.
3) From my understanding, contextual menus violate WYSIWYG. It involves Trial&Error;, because you never know which thing on the screen will give you a one and if, what it will contain.
I like the fact, that OSX relies on con.menus much less than Windows. In this regard, do YOU really need to ctrl-click so often, that it bothers you? I sure don’t. People sometimes ridicule the enormous button on my Powerbook, saying there would easily be room for a “right button” but I use the whole size of it, it gives me great of freedom of hand positioning.
Then again, a multibutton mouse wouldn’t hurt. I complete agree with you that nobody is confused by it. People will either use it or ignore it. The latter would subsequenly ignore ctrl-click too. And a regular scroll-mouse provides a third button by clicking the wheel, so the die hard maccies who hate right-clicking have to more buttons at their disposal, e.g. for activating Exposé.
And alas, Apple has finally listened to the people and released Mighty Mouse. But from what I’ve heard, they actually managed to screw up the ancient concept of a two-button mouse here…
4) Would make sense but I can’t say I’ve ever been bothered by this.
5) Yeah, I’d like to see that too - at least as an option.
I think the Finder is the weakest link in OSX. I didn’t like it when I switched 2 years ago and I don’t like it now. What I’m missing the most, every day, is the folder tree.
Macintosh Explorer has one, but it is clumsy and “windowsy”. Same goes for PathFinder. Both appear to have been made by secret admirers of the Windows OS, since they lack a genuine OSX-feel. You’re simply overwhelmed by a cluttered, feature-overloaded interface.
And at some point, I can’t remember if it started with 10.3 or came in a later Panther-Version Apple decided to lose the CUT command. Whoever made that decision, I would love to have just 5 minutes alone with him in a sound-proof room…
I think Apple MUST listen to its users and for EVERYTHING that XP does better (or sometimes does and OSX doesn’t at all) Apple must come up with either a superior solution or a clone.
No, as stated by many, many posters… It *is* a one button mouse out of the box.
So the feature isn’t there unless you WANT to use it, but you certainly don’t have to. And when you do, you unquestionably violate Apple’s own design philosophy.
Umm....
How exactly does that differ from a context menu in a folder (or browser) that lets you save an image as your wallpaper? It’s a feature that’s hidden away unless you want to use it, and then it’s there when you do. That’s certainly no more intrusive than the context menu is in the first place. And if you’re using context menus, then you’re looking for more functionality there, not less. How many context items would there be for a jpg anyway?
The difference, of course, is that Apple implemented one and not the other, and that, of course, is sufficient for rabid zealous defense of one and rabid zealous attack on the other. It has nothing to do with KISS. It has do with what Jobs says is okay and what he, by ommission, says isn’t. The minions take care of the rest.
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Another great folder feature in XP that should be adopted by Apple is the preview icon that shows you what is in a folder before you open it. This is especially useful for photos. It’s a great time-saver. And Vista will add the ability to iconify the contents of a document, something both Mac and Windows already do with image files and Windows does with movie files.
I eagerly await the fanatics’ response on why this is a bad idea, and why it’s a good thing OS X doesn’t do this.