What OS X Could Learn From Windows
Okay.
Hard hat? Check.
Flak jacket? Check.
Flame proof vest? Check.
White flag? Check.
Deep breath? Check.
Windows has some features OS X could do with.
There, I said it. Nice and quick and up front. No beating around the bush. So what now? Duck!!!
Is it safe to come out yet? I’ve been burnt before daring to suggest this. But here I am again, sucker for punishment.
1) Compatible control keys. Switching between Mac and Windows this drives me nuts. I have to consciously think “command-C or control-C?” It shouldn’t have to be that way. And if you’re running RDC or VPC and copying and pasting between OS X and Windows!! Sheesh!
The problem isn’t the labeling, it’s the location of the keys used. I had to use a Windows PC today and I kept pressing Alt-C to copy. This is why it’s a problem. If it was simply a matter of labeling, no worries, mate. Apple - and the zealotry - need to concede that this battle is lost.
Implementing this would rock many people’s boats, so if Apple did make this change it’d have some serious domino affect on other keystrokes and applications that use them, but maybe it could be done with the switch to Intel, just to ease the pain slightly.
2) Save button on toolbars. I don’t think any of the Apple software ever gives you the option to include a Save button. Print button yes, Save button no. A little test - raise your hand if you save your work more often than you print it? Ah, so I’m not alone. Good. You can put your hands down. Thank you.
3) A multi button mouse. And you thought I’d say two. Why stop at two? Especially with things like Exposé, Dashboard and Spotlight. They’re just crying out for single click activation from a mouse. Ok. So this isn’t a Windows feature per sé, but still is needed.
4) Only show relevant file types in open and save dialogs. For those who like seeing every file that’s every existed in their Documents folder, give them a checkbox to show all files. But personally, if I am opening a Pages file, I don’t want to see all my iMovie, Excel, iDVD etc files. And OS X already knows which are which because non-related ones are greyed out.
5) Sort folders to top of directory listings I know that we don’t go folder mining as much since we got Spotlight, so I won’t labor on about this one.
6) More context sensitive help. I notice since I first raised this two years ago, more of it has crept into OS X. So I guess at least I can’t be flamed for this one!
Now why is it that I can list all the features I want Leopard to have and as long as none of them are from Windows, its cool? But dare suggest OS X needs a feature already in Windows and the world comes down on you. We can admit that OS X is not perfect, but not that Windows is better in some ways.
But Apple have admitted it in the past. Here’s just a couple of things I’ve seen Windows do that Apple has added:
- Command-tab switching
- Existing files selectable in Save dialog
Last week I suggested changes to the iPod and more people than not, disagreed. And I reckon this week it’ll be a lot worse. But if I added to this list “Change to Intel CPU’s”... two months ago I would have been burned at the stake. Now it seems we all think that change is logical. So before you get the flame thrower out remember, we know Apple make changes, they borrow from Windows and borrow from their 3rd party developers.
Also, I know I’m going to get flamed for this being a “tired old argument that has been done to death”. Sorry if you feel that way. just pretend I didn’t say these features already existed in Windows and that they are new and revolutionary. If we stop asking, Apple may think we don’t want them anymore. Microsoft copied so much from Mac OS, why can’t Apple do a little copying back?
And if you can take the heat, what would you like to see Apple borrow from Windows?
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Chris wrote: “Something that does annoy me no end too, and I’m sure there’s an “explanation”, is when I drag and drop something I want to insert in a document, hovering over the application’s Dock icon doesn’t bring that app to the fore.”
As a switcher from Windows, I catch my self doing that on rare occasions. However, instead of bringing a window to front, on Mac OS X, dragging items onto an application’s icon in the dock is a shortcut for asking it to open it. As with clicking on an app’s icon in the Dock, it switches to or launches the app if necessary before opening it. Personally, find this much more useful in my day to day work.
For example, click and hold on a image in Safari, then drag that image to Preview or Photoshop’s icon in the dock. If the app isn’t running, it will launch, then open the image. Notice that it will open the image without you having to explicitly saving it to the desktop first. You can do this with most “well behaved” Mac OS X applications.
Chris wrote :“It means I have to plan before dragging and dropping. I have to make sure a portion of the target document is visible on the desktop.”
Perhaps holding an image over an application’s icon for a few seconds would be a good indication that you’d rather switch to it instead. However, as you’ve noticed, since applications are not windows, you’re not guaranteed that the document you actually want to add the item to will actually be the front most window when you switch to it. It could be behind another open window from the same application.
Chris wrote: “Why can’t [windows] be spring-loaded too?”
Actually, finder windows *are* somewhat spring loaded. Open a Finder window and move it half-way off screen. Then drag a file over the window. You’ll notice that the window actually repositions itself so it’s completely on screen. If the window is partially obscured by another Finder window, it will also be brought to front. If you actually drop the file to copy or move it, the window will remain in it’s new position. Otherwise, it returns to it’s original position and depth.
Beeb wrote:“And your example of the Apple mouse is exactly how Apple apologists do such a disservice and how consistently hollow and short-sighted their arguments can be.”
My point on this matter has always been that using a two button mouse in Mac OS X should always be optional and not a requirement. The Mighty Mouse that Apple released is set to single button mode default, which essentially makes it a single button mouse until you change it in preferences. As such, using a two button mouse is still optional.
Even before then, you could always plug in a multi-button mouse and it worked just fine.
Beeb wrote: “And I’m now tired of repeatedly justifying a simple functionality preference with a Mac zombie.”
Preference? You’ve consistently implied this is not a issue of preference. It’s an incompetent oversight on Apple’s part. You’ve even flat out said so in a previous post.
Beeb wrote: “And no, there is no logical reason for this oversight.”
Preference? You’ve consistently implied this is not a issue of preference.
According to the high and mighty standards you are under the delusion that Apple follows - it’s a design oversight even if they did it deliberately. If I had meant “incompetent” I would have said so.
But my suggestion that they make alt-tab more practical and useful for us “80%-ers” is, at the end of the day, a preference. Just as it is your preference to happily swallow whatever features (or lack thereof) that Apple shoves into your Mac-atronic brain cavity and then invent meaningless justifications for them.
Chris wrote: “Why can’t [windows] be spring-loaded too?”
Actually, finder windows *are* somewhat spring loaded.
Sorry, I shoulda been clearer. I meant applications’ windows in the Dock. Again, not that I minimize much; however, if they did spring load, that would make dragging and dropping to a document sooo much easier. I’d just minimize the document, go find the file (usualy an image) drag it onto the document’s icon on the Dock, wait for it to unminimize, and drop it into position in the document.
I can live with alt-tabbing to the app. And at least it works! (i.e. processes my keystroke while draggihng) Unlike command-up-arrow when you’re dragging in Finder. Does anyone yet know a secret method to go to the parent folder when dragging a file?
The only thing I could suggest, Chris, is switching to the Column View in Finder before you drag. That’s typically what I do.
While not exactly what you’re looking for, the “stack” window in Path Finder is really handy for copying and moving files around.
Frankly, I’m just waiting for Apple to buy out or totally rip off Path Finder for functionality that should have been in there five years ago.
Pathfinder doesn’t have a hierarchial tree view (like Windows Explorer and iPhoto) so I’m not interested.
Of course, Beeb, you know, I wouldn’t actually care about being able to navigate up a folder while dragging if Finder included file cut and paste. (Now I’ll set off all those folks again telling me people would lose files by the thousands if OS X had that. I assume they’ve never heard of Windows which does do it, and I haven’t come across any user losing files because of it - despite 10 years supporting Windows. What they really should say is Mac users are too stupid to use file cut and paste. After all, the message I keep getting is Macs are for the lowest common denominator. Now there’s an interesting article…;))
I agree about hierarchical structure. It’s one of the many many shortcomings that make Finder so infuriating.
Btw, Path Finder does add cut-and-paste, which is extremely useful.
Cut and paste in Finder was already discussed extensively above and is yet another example of how a LACK of a feature is moronically defended by post facto “reasoning” that makes little or no sense.
I have NEVER lost a file by cutting and pasting. Never. In fact, I end up doing manually what cut and paste would do, which is copying a file to a new location and then deleting the original, but it takes far longer and is far more annoying than doing it with a simple command.
And in another one of those weird design inconsistencies, OS X does allow you to cut and paste by DRAGGING (provided you are going from folder to folder on the same drive), but not by command or context menus.
By the 80% rule that Apple supposedly follows but clearly doesn’t, the opposite should be the case since, practically speaking, you are far more likely to make a mistake by dragging than be deliberately using a command or context menu.
Beeb, did you know you can over-ride the drag and copy to another drive, and make it drag and move, by holding down the command key?
No I didn’t. Thanks for the info. That begs the question even more why you can’t do this with the context menu. Very frustrating.
also if the default on drag, is move, then holding option will force it to copy.
And if you hold option and command, it will create an alias.
Beeb wrote: “According to the high and mighty standards you are under the delusion that Apple follows - it’s a design oversight even if they did it deliberately. If I had meant “incompetent” I would have said so.”
Is an oversight or a deliberate choice? It can’t be both.
Oversight : unintentional failure to notice or do something.
Deliberately: done consciously and intentionally
Beeb wrote: “for us “80%-ers”
You mean so Alt-tab works like it does on MS Windows? If anything is delusional, it’s your claim that you’re an 80%er. You want features that make it easer for you to switch from Windows to Mac OS X. These are two separate things.
Again, there is nothing wrong with asking for those features, but saying “Mac OS X should use MS Windows key shortcuts” is quite different than saying “There should be an option in Mac OS X so I can use the same shortcuts keys as MS Windows.” Clearly, your approach has been the former since the start. Any attempt to point that out to you has been met with hostility and verbal insults.
For example, how did this latest discussion start?
Beeb wrote: “I’m sure Scott can come up with some ludicrous reason why I really should be happy it does that, but I find it annoying.”
After pointing out the obvious, I wrote :“Note: I’m not saying you should be happy Mac OS X does this, I’m simply saying there is a perfectly logical reason for it’s behavior.”
Then, as usual, regardless of what reasons I gave, none of them were “valid” and all of them were imaginary and ludicrous. It’s clear that, unless it follows MS Windows and the rest of the industry, you think Apple is ludicrous and incompetent.
On a hunch, I decided to look up the Dock in Apple’s HIG. As I expected…
- - - - - -
CLICKING ON THE DOCK
Clicking an application icon in the Dock should always result in a window becoming active.
- If the application is not open, a new window should open. In a document-based application, the application should open a new, untitled window. In an application that is not document-based, the main application window should open.
- When a user clicks an open application’s icon in the Dock, the application becomes active and all open unminimized windows are brought to the front; minimized document windows remain in the Dock. If there are no unminimized windows when the user clicks the Dock icon, the last minimized window should be expanded and made active. If no windows are open, the application should open a new window—a new untitled window for document-based applications, otherwise the main application window.
- - - - - - -
Sound familiar?
Here’s the page in it’s entirety. http://tinyurl.com/3c9udy
Clicking on an app’s icon in the Dock always gives you an ACTIVE WINDOW. Even if there is no need to switch because the app is already active or the app isn’t even running. Switching applications and un-minimiing windows is only one of may ways the Dock does this.
Alt-tab is EXPLICITLY asking to SWITCH applications. As such, they are two different things. I’ve also given examples of how extending only part of Dock functionary to alt-tab would be inconstant and even counter productive in several situations.
And I’m not the only one who agrees….
http://www.numenorean.net/blog/archives/2006/08/five_things_tha.html
As a switcher, you’re more than welcome to ask “There should be an option in Mac OS X that lets you always get a window when your Alt-Tab.” But instead we hear, “...there is no logical reason for this oversight” and “meaningless justifications.”
Also, I’d recommend giving Witch a try. Looks like it does exactly what your looking for. And it’s free.
http://www.manytricks.com/witch/
Beeb wrote: “Cut and paste in Finder was already discussed extensively above..”
Here we go again…
People expect Cut and Paste to always work the same way - regardless of the context of how it’s used. They expect to be able to undo at least one cut and paste operation, just like they can in a word processor. However, using Cut and Paste with files can easily break this assumption when multiple volumes are involved.
Moving files on to the same drive is really a rename. It happens immediately, can not fail and can be immediately undone.
However, moving files to a different drive requires copying and deleting files on different volumes. If your wireless connection drops, someone trips over a cable or file server goes down, the target volume will becomes unavailable during the move and the process will fail.
As a result, you will be left with with an incomplete move. Half of your files could be on the target, the other half on the source. You can’t undo. At this point the user has no clue exactly where his files are and could easily loose data. Since the user never has this problem with using cut and paste in a word processor, this sort of behavior could be completely unexpected when used with files.
If the user aborts the operation, it’s a partial move as well. Unless the user immediately undoes the operation, they’re in the same mess as above. And an undo has to copy and delete more files. What if that fails as well?
Only allowing copy across volumes insures none of this happens. You simply delete or replace the copied folder or files and start over. As Chris mentioned, you can always use the command modifier to move files between volumes.
“...moronically defended by post facto “reasoning” that makes little or no sense.”
It’s appears you’re never been on the other end of a technical support hotline. And they loose data. I was a technical support rep in one form or another for over 4 years. People do this sort of thing all the time. And with the addition of WiFI and services like iDisk, the potential for move operations to fail has increased significantly.
Apple took a similar approach with removable media. When creating Mac OS, they didn’t just improve error messages that occurred when a disk or volume wasn’t available, they got rid of nearly all of them all together by not showing the volume when not media was present and limiting volume ejection to software only wherever possible.
This was a conscious effort and the reason why you never see a “Please insert a disk into drive x:”? when clicking on a drive with no media. (even when Mac still had floppy drives)
Yet this annoying, unnecessary error message shows up with I click on drive A: on Windows when no floppy is present.
Then again, I’m sure Beeb can come up with some ludicrous reason why I want it to do that
(Yes, I know, it’s due to different device models in Windows and Mac OS X)
I wrote: “...when clicking on a drive with no media.”
Should read… “..when a drive has no media”
(can’t click on a drive that’s not visible)
Only allowing copy across volumes insures none of this happens.
Scott, your Mac-atronic apologist brain once again fails to contemplate one simple fact - OS X DOES ALLOW cutting-and-pasting across volumes, but via command-click-and-drag. I was only just informed of this, so it’s a step in the right direction as far as I’m concerned. My complaint is that they should add that functionality (which it now clearly has) to the context menu.
And since your apologist post-facto “reasoning” has evaporated like so much spilled rubbing alcohol, you’ll now have to once again go back the drawing board and invent a post-facto excuse for the design inconsistency, since OS X clearly does what you say it can’t.
As in application switching, why does OS X do it one way and then another when they supposedly espouse “consistency” as a hallmark of design?
If I cut-and-paste files across volumes using command-click-and-drag, then they should add “cut” at least to the context menu.
“There should be an option in Mac OS X so I can use the same shortcuts keys as MS Windows.” Clearly, your approach has been the former since the start.
What’s the title of this thread, Mac-bot? Every feature I’ve mentioned is a feature in Windows that OS X does not have.
If hearing such things offends your Mac-bot sensibilities, then maybe this thread isn’t for you. You haven’t listed one single feature, not ONE, that OS X could learn from Windows. In fact, your ENTIRE contribution to this thread has been why we’re all WRONG for suggesting that such a thing is even possible and inventing bizarre and nonsensical rationals for every single thing OS X doesn’t do, even when it does.
So what I’d LOVE to hear from you is one major or minor feature that you think OS X could learn from Windows. And make it good one. Saying the Finder should be faster isn’t a feature.
Instead of using your energy to make ridiculous excuses for Apple, be productive. Help OS X improve. Provided, of course, you even think it’s possible and that I’m not blaspheming your heavenly god Steve Jobs.