What OS X Could Learn From Windows

Scott, your example for Beeb is good but misses one key thing.

In all our discussions so far, we haven’t talked about covering your ass. It’s called verify. Sometimes, you just don’t rush in and cut&paste;files.

In the situation you describe, there’s no way on God’s earth I would ever use a move process.

I would always do that via a copy, verify, and delete.

When I am moving files between folders or my own disks, move is fine.

However, there are other times, such as your example, where even on Windows with cut&paste;of files, you just wouldn’t do it.

The failure scenarios you give are rare, but Murphy’s Law is not.

At least in your scenario though, you did have a backup. But all the same.

- I’d copy the files
- Contact client to verify he got them okay AND can *open* them (even though I can see they’ve gone over)
- And only then delete them from my system.

As you’ve hopefully noticed by now, the Trash works like the clipboard, except it doesn’t have all of the limitations the clipboard does regarding loss of content or holding large amounts of data.

Then they’ve chosen the worst possible name for it.  Here again, if this is the case, then Microsoft’s “Recycle Bin” is a more appropriate name.

Since Finder is about five years overdue for a total overhaul, changing these kinds of conventions could be a welcome change.

All I’m asking is that they implement a way to move files via the context menu or keyboard shortcut.  I don’t really care how they do it.  Chris’s Automator solution is an improvement, but is more or less a stop-gap (too many clicks) until something better comes along.

Man, I hate to triple post again, but I actually thought of ANOTHER design inconsistency in Macs, not only from OS to app but also within Finder itself.

And it actually relates to what we’re discussing.  I’m sure Chris will have mucho chagrin to add here as well.  I’m referring of course to…

...Delete.

Click on a file in the Finder and hit the Delete key.  Which “delete key” you ask?  That’s a good question because there are TWO of them, and despite identical names, they both function differently.  Er...sometimes.  That is, sometimes they perform the same function.  Other times they don’t.

But it’s not like it matters, because whichever one you pick, nothing will happen.  That’s right.  Nothing.

When you want to Delete a file in the Finder, you can’t just click the Delete key.  You have to click the correct delete key (the big one) AND command at the same time.

I’m not sure how you’re supposed to intuitively know this, but let’s just assume you’ve figured it out.  So now you’ve deleted your file and it has, as expected, moved to the Trash.

Are you with me so far?  Good.

Now here’s where Scott’s apologist excuses dissolve into nothingness and where Chris’s point above about OS’s working slightly differently than apps is proved definitively right.

First of all, I don’t need to tell you that not one single application that I know of uses this method for deleting files.  Not one.  Not only do most apps allow you to simply delete, they do NOT send the deletion to the clipboard OR the trash.  It’s just gone unless you undo.

In Word, you can use either delete key, although the big one is used as the Windows equivalent of “backspace” while the small one is a true “delete.”

Now, one can (and I’m sure Scott will) argue that one wants a bit of extra security before deleting a file that may turn out to have been too important to delete.

But there are two points here on why Apple’s implementation makes less sense than, say, Windows.

First, as Scott has so vigorously pointed out, that extra bit of security already exists.  It’s called the Trash.  If you accidentally delete a file, it’s right there in the Trash for your undeleting pleasure.

But, you say, even Windows forces you to confirm a deletion before it moves it to the Recycle Bin, and forcing the user to hold Command at the same time accomplishes the same thing.

That’s true.  But here we’re talking about intuitiveness AND consistency, both of which are supposedly so prized at Apple but are absent here.  In Windows, you delete a file and it then ASKS you to confirm your deletion.  And even if you confirm, it moves it to the Recycle Bin before erasing it permanently.

Hitting the delete key does what you think it should.  It deletes.  And you get to confirm that deletion.  You’re good to go.

But with Apple, somehow or other you’re supposed to know that hitting the right Delete key by itself won’t do anything.  At all.  You have to hit Command.

Not only is this far less intuitive (and btw, no less secure or idiot-proof), but it’s INCONSISTENT with Apple’s OWN applications.

Try going to iTunes and deleting a file.  Guess what happens.  When you click Delete, it asks you to confirm!  Gee, I wonder where they got that idea from!

Beeb wrote: “Then they’ve chosen the worst possible name for it.  Here again, if this is the case, then Microsoft’s “Recycle Bin” is a more appropriate name.”

Really? The “Trash” works just like the trash can you would find next to your desk. If you put items in the trash, they stay in the trash. If you put trash in a trash, but never empty it, the trash stays in your office and continues to take up space (and smell really bad, depending on it’s contents)

A Recycle bin is where you put specific kinds of waste so it can be reused. Do you put Word documents in the Recycle Bin so you can use them as a template for documents? Do other people use them for other documents? No. Again, the fact that the bits the files took on the drive are “reused” to hold other files is an implementation detail. Users do not understand these concepts, nor do they care. They just want to delete a file because they don’t need it any more. By using the name Recycle Bin, Microsoft either wants to look politically correct, doesn’t know when to hide implementation details or both.

Beeb wrote: “No offense, but since I actually do this with video ALL the time”

I realized this. You’ve mentioned that you work with Final Cut in other posts. I’ve edited several on-air commercials as well, which is exactly why I picked this scenario.

Beeb wrote: “which is that we don’t want the feature we say we want.”

I’m not saying you don’t want this feature, I’m illustrating how you wouldn’t want to use cut and paste with files because of your knowledge of how it’s underlying implementation works. Yet, if cut and paste didn’t have this limitation (or you did not know about it), you may have used it, because it would have done exactly what you wanted.

Beeb wrote: “First of all, just because a tool isn’t appropriate for every situation doesn’t mean it’s always inappropriate.”

Correct. However, if that tool, for non-obvous reasons, doesn’t act the same in every situation, how can you tell if it’s appropriate or not?

Beeb wrote: “Second, and more importantly, I would NEVER give a client project files without keeping a backup.”

Do you have to think about making backups of your Word document when you use Cut and Paste to move text? Are there times when you cut and paste to paragraphs and only half of the works show up? No.

Regardless, this was addressed in the scenario. I wrote: “you’ve just finished archiving the completed files to DVDs, when the client calls.” So this shouldn’t be a factor in your decision.

In my real life example, we had a nightly tape backup of the frames. However, the reason I remember this so clearly is that I was the guy who setup the backups. When I got the call when things went wrong, I was in Tampa working on another project. I had to drop what I was doing and drive two hours to restore the files. Plus we had to figure out what files made it and which didn’t because we didn’t have time to resend all of them again. Major PITA.

Beeb wrote: “My browser downloads to the desktop by default, which is where I want my downloads MOST of the time.  So it’s not worth changing my settings every time I need to download.  But my project files reside on an external drive connected to my iMac.  So after downloading, I want a fast way to MOVE my files from one disk to the other.”

Perfectly good example of why you want to move files. Again, I’m simply saying that I think moving files under the guise of Cut and Paste is bad design. Your free to disagree with me. As I mentioned to Chris, what about File > Move to along with File > Duplicate? since they both emulate cut/copy/paste behavior?

Beeb wrote: “Again, I’m not interested in all the reasons why I shouldn’t be able to do this simple task because some idiots don’t know what they’re doing.”

You’ve made that perfectly clear from the start. Looks like Microsoft isn’t interested either. Yet these “idiots” you just described make up the “80%” of the people using computers. 

Beeb wrote: “then we’d all be reduced to using basic calculators that run on solar power.”

Gee, here I am, running a pre-emptive, multi-tasking dual-core Mac with nine active applications, including XP in Parallels. Yet, there’s still no cut and paste in the finder. I guess I’m doing the Impossible yet again!

Beeb wrote: “According to the Apple single mouse button apologists, putting a “move” command (or “cut") in the context menu is sufficiently hiding it away.”

Again, you’re putting words into my mouth. I’ve clearly stated that using a two button mouse should not a requirement. Period. As such, an OS should be designed in a way that let’s the users perform the majority of the most common tasks with a single button. As I said earlier, users who do not know or care about these concepts are not stupid, they just don’t need or want to use a two button mouse. Why make it a requirement? Because you want to?

Beeb wrote: Click on a file in the Finder and hit the Delete key.  Which “delete key” you ask?  That’s a good question because there are TWO of them, and despite identical names, they both function differently.  Er...sometimes.  That is, sometimes they perform the same function.  Other times they don’t.

But it’s not like it matters, because whichever one you pick, nothing will happen.  That’s right.  Nothing.”

Correct nothing happens. That’s because Apple makes a clear distinction between the words “Delete” and “Move to Trash.”

Hitting the delete key in a word processor instantly deletes the text. Hitting delete in the finder does nothing because files are not instantly deleted. In fact, the word “Delete” is not present at all in the Finder’s main menu or contextual menus. Go look for yourself. Instead you find the words “Move to Trash” and “Empty Trash”

As such, the shortcut key for move to trash requires the command key modifier to signify it’s different than a regular delete.

Beeb wrote: “Not only do most apps allow you to simply delete, they do NOT send the deletion to the clipboard OR the trash.  It’s just gone unless you undo.”

Correct. Nor do they require you to hold the command key to delete either. No modifier, instant delete. Modifier, delayed delete by moving to trash.  Seems constant to me.

I’d also note that Microsoft uses the exact same name, “Delete”, for both immediately deleting items in applications and putting files in the Recycle Bin in Explorer, even though they are two different behaviors. Context clicking on a file also shows the word “Delete” even though selecting it doesn’t really doesn’t immediately delete the file.

Just as with Cut and Paste, Microsoft has decided to change the implementation of “Delete”, depending on what application it’s being used in. 

Beeb wrote: “But with Apple, somehow or other you’re supposed to know that hitting the right Delete key by itself won’t do anything.  At all.  You have to hit Command.”

Do files get immediately deleted in the Finder? No. So why should you be surprised that you have to hold down a modifier key to send files to the Trash? The shortcut key for File > Move to Trash is listed as CMD-DEL. Seems consistent to me.

Beeb wrote: “Try going to iTunes and deleting a file.  Guess what happens.  When you click Delete, it asks you to confirm!”

Actually, deleting a media item from your library or playlist could also potentially remove it from your IPod or Apple TV. This isn’t obvious, so iTunes informs you of this fact and lets you cancel in case you were unaware of the implications of hitting delete. There is a checkbox that lets you skip this conformation in the future.

I addition, iTunes is not the finder. It doesn’t list every file or video on your computer, it only shows media that’s you’ve imported into your iTune’s library or playlists. It also allows you to add the same item to multiple playlists. In other words, there really isn’t a direct one to one relationship between items in your iTunes library and items on your filesystem.

When you delete a track or video in iTunes, your asking it to remove it from the current playlist or your library, not from the filesystem. This will happen immediately (there is no Trash in iTunes) so the command modifier key is not required.

However, iTunes is smart. It knows that you also might want to move the underlying file to the Trash so you can remove it completely.  As such, it also asks you if you want to simply remove the file from iTunes or remove it from ITunes and move it to the Trash as well.

Seems consistent to me.

I should have learned my lesson a few posts back.  Talking to a brick wall is actually much more productive so I think I’ll go do that now.

Just for fun, I’m going to retroactively wish that Apple copies the feature “Previous Versions” from Vista, an update of “Volume Shadow Copy” from XP and Windows Server 2003.

What does it do, you ask?  The feature allows you to click on any file and restore it to a previous saved version of the file without using a separate backup utility or having to restore volumes of data.  These are essentially persistent hidden backup copies of all files on your system that can be called up on demand.

Feature creep?  Too complicated a concept for the mythical “average user”?  Additional hardware requirements too steep?  Hmmmmm.

Also, another previously mentioned feature: per application volume control.

I mention this one again because I can’t come up with any good reasons why I DON’T want this feature, which I obviously don’t because OS X doesn’t have it.  And yet I do.  See my conundrum?

I leave that to our resident “why you don’t want what OS X doesn’t give you” experts.